Judgement is OP.

If I hook in a DF he just uses judgement and i lose my pot. And if i dont hook he just storms me and pots. Fuck that.

an underlvled lur can't do anything vs any character.
if lur has enough level and burst for fxc, hook lur should probably win most of the time.
if you think dark fact is still op, try soul hunter xD

SungJ wrote:an underlvled lur can't do anything vs any character.
if lur has enough level and burst for fxc, hook lur should probably win most of the time.
if you think dark fact is still op, try soul hunter xD

I was the same level and I bursted just like I always do.

All i see is "boohoohoo my lur cant 2shot DF so it's op boohoohoo"

Ask Aloera (since he is the resident expert on DF as he is CHAMPION OF BOA YEAH GO TEAMMMMMM) about when I played Lur vs his DF. DF can't do anything short of holding down the F button and hoping to God it lands before XC combo. You just don't know when to pot and play mind games.

A lot of playing melee vs something like judgment involves mindgames and baiting with charge-cancel fakes and so on. Once you have enough attack points the hook combo will own DF unless you are telegraphing terribly and he expects you to come in and you aren't gaming. Then yes, GG for you.

Lur can even own Krizard (say whaaaa?) with enough damage.

Judgment is gay, and certainly it is designed to be anti-melee. But the vulnerability after the spell really doesn't make it that great after early game. And early game is all about baiting and keeping control of the lane. If you need more help with that then ask one of us to do a 1v1 with you watching (i.e. me vs Aloera).

just because df takes less skill then feng doesnt make it op

just because df takes less skill then feng doesnt make it op

Izzit even possible to need less skills than to play fag dong?

Rip wrote:

just because df takes less skill then feng doesnt make it op

Izzit even possible to need less skills than to play fag dong?

Well actually with Feng you need to move after pressing f, but with dark fact you just need to press f. You can ask Aloerawhich is easier, I think these two are the only characters he plays

alex: u still mad? heheheheheh.

imtd wrote:

Rip wrote:

just because df takes less skill then feng doesnt make it op

Izzit even possible to need less skills than to play fag dong?

Well actually with Feng you need to move after pressing f, but with dark fact you just need to press f. You can ask Aloerawhich is easier, I think these two are the only characters he plays

The difference is: with fag dong you have no problem with actually killing someone, without relying on your opponent beeing completely retarded.

Judgment is probably one of the strongest abilities in early game against melee, but overall late game it loses a lot of ground. That's why they made it ignore armor, however in late game you can just dump a pot, stand there and then unload after it's done.

Fang does more damage with his ultimate skill, can move around and cast abilities while it's on.

AND WE STILL DIDN'T WIN ROUND 1. WTFFFFFFFFF >

tbh tho no matter the amount of mindgames from a charge cancel fakeout if he ever hits ur range hes dead if its lur vs df...

u do a short ranged hook there is nothing to stop an vf in ur face before u hook...

and if he long ranges hook at any point in time u hav plenty of time to do a vf...

if ur mindgaming it the moment he clips u with a v means he runs up a bit and hits u with another v then f and this is actually simple to do if he counter pots then see the above 2 situation...

and the point where u can kill lur with a vf is basically the point up till like lvl 12ish and if hes stupid and keeps tryin then hes gonna end up underleveled and thats gg right there...

however, u can get kills(as lur) if he walks up a tower at u cos then he only has time to basically bash the f button (if he even reacts in time) in which case u cahrge away and come back to bash his face in.

yah hook disables f for a good few seconds (long enough for at least xcx... haven't really tested).

but really, whats the big deal... switch lanes?
i mean, why don't people ever switch... when i am ff vs duran, i know to gtfo and take another lane. if he follows me, i switch again.
really, lur vs df is no biggie.

Bh vs df..... gay

LOL i wonder why you say that

ff vs df is even harder... 1 headbutt and u basically did a suicide tho u can suicide kill and do a turret surround as u die XD

LOL.

@ Sadface

Don't take this personally, but I doubt there is anyone in EU who plays melee really well that can talk about this matchup realistically. In NA there are 2-3 people, and I can guarantee you that they won't lose their lanes to DF with BH or Lur (unless you are Macanas of course). There is a reason DF is low tier, and early game good positioning and knowing when to enter the lane and CC to camp the towers, etc. will own DF.

imo Janne is 100000x more annoying to lane with as melee than DF for a variety of reasons.

Alexander wrote:imo Janne is 100000x more annoying to lane with as melee than DF for a variety of reasons.

<3

I love watching melees uselessly run into force fields, then if their Blade Hunter they final blow over I say "fuck you" as I press d and run like hell toward my towers.

SadFace wrote:ff vs df is even harder... 1 headbutt and u basically did a suicide tho u can suicide kill and do a turret surround as u die XD

Since ff has zero cooldown and infy range on headbutt he can just headbutt his way out of judgement and back home. And by the time judgement stops he has headbutted his way back to kill df

@ alex, there is also a reason that df is one of the best melee counters... janne is a better counter but a good df shouldnt lose to a melee cos u can effectively just go eco and defensive pot and the melee player cant do anything so it forces a switch...

the main reason df is in 3rd tier is basically that he gets fucked by a lot of ranged chars...

also lur is also 3rd tier so ur argument is somewhat void if ur talkin bout tiers... (granted bout the bh thing)

and yea laerik we all hate ff in eu i get u but my point still stands :p

@ Cyclo

100% agree. Janne can steal box, use invincibility and run away (as opposed to DF) and block ramps. 500000000% more gay.

@ SungJ

<3

@ SadFace

Not talking about tiers at all. If you are good with melee, then you won't lose. DF is a counter to melee at a low level of play. In fact he is unstoppable by low-skill players. Again, nothing personal, but if you don't play high level melee and haven't seen it (have you seen the Korean replays of melees and how they are used like Nostalgia?), then you are saying things that are just silly.

If I can win a fight by baiting a medic to use her shield, baiting judgment is even easier.

Lur = Hook combo with enough attack points will not be survived.
BH = FB blink out of range, CC back.
GH = Same thing, plus golems take damage.
FF = Blink
Q = Blink
Zeros = WS blink or own with DTS. Easiest matchup.
Duran = Upswing

On top of the fact that most high level players buy a speed card as well as booster after first regen meaning avoiding storms is a lot easier than you think it is and charge canceling away/back to him can be done effectively.

Trust me when I am saying you have no idea what you're talking about at high level. DF is not tier 3 because he gets owned by range heroes. He's tier 3 because of other reasons.

I wish you could come play at EU and show us high lvl play Alex.

@alex

none of the strategies u suggested are viable against a defensive eco style since the df wont pot first so ur only randomly blinking out and away (df should only pot when he sees the melee pot) but it is possible to 1 hit with a finalcombo in time before df can pull off a vf but thats not viable early when u get gimped by the mana regen timing

also this brings me back to the way u love to argue: talk using same skill levels... nostalgia trumps almost anybody and there arent any top class players that play df for this whole argument to be valid

@ Modesty

I don't need to come to EU. Just use pacman.

@ SadFace

Nothing personal was meant, so I apologize if you took it that way as it seems. It's not the "way I love to argue", it really is just a matter of skill. A low level melee player who is not used to mindgames, predicting behavior and camping, good charge cancel, etc. will be overwhelmed by judgment. EU does not have anyone as an example to know what I am talking about, so you speak from that experience and it's understandable why you would present the arguments you do. I am telling you from a different experience that at higher levels of play it is not that big a deal, especially for the melees that can blink.

Here the only DF "top" players I can tell you were Kaz, MishenEx and Aloera. But even then, it wasn't as if that meant anything. There is a reason there are no "top DF players" because DF is a garbage hero. He may have a great early-pot deterrent for melee, but he is easily ganked with judgment and mindgames, as well as it not being as useful late game compared to mode.

None of the points I raised you even considered, so it is my fault for not explaining them better. I will just play a 1v1 with someone of representative quality here to demonstrate what I am talking about.